Stop Arguing with Trolls! — Bad Faith Arguments and YOU! (Breadville Puppet Theater)

, , 97 Comments


Neckybeard: Hey Glue! Have you seen this horrible character design for the new She-Ra? Glue The Horse: Oh gee, Neckybeard. I don’t see anything wrong with it. She looks okay to me. Neckybeard: Okaaaay? She’s disgusting! Look at how flat her chest is. That’s not what She-Ra’s suppose to look like. She-Ra’s suppose to have big… giant… sexy… barely concealed breasts. These SJWs are ruining my childhood! Glue: Don’t you think that new design might be better for a little kids’ show? Neckybeard: God, Glue, you are such a snowflake. You and all these feminists have an agenda of creating gender chaos and emasculating all men, so that we become second-class citizens. Glue: Relax, Neckybeard, it’s not that big a deal. I really don’t care about the way She-Ra is redesigned. Neckybeard: It’s a huge deal when beta cucks like you wanna take away my freedom of speech by robbing the world of She-Ra’s heavy… glistening… pendulous… sweeeeaty… Carrot: Uh-oh! Looks like Glue here has signed himself up for a 45-minute long debate about cartoon boobies that he didn’t even wanna talk about to begin with. What went wrong? It turns out Glue fell into the rhetorical trap of a bad faith argument. What is bad faith, you ask? According to Wikipedia, it means all kinds of bullshit. But in this film, we’ll be focusing on the use of bad faith arguments and debates with angry trolls who can’t fathom the notion that somebody might disagree with them. When a person argues in good faith, they have a basic level of respect for the person they are speaking with. Good faith arguments are intended to seek truth and better understanding of the topic with due consideration given to both sides of the debate. Let’s see what a good faith argument looks like. Karl Marx-Chan: If you ask me, the best ninja turtle is Raphael. Krobotkin: Really? Why do you think that? Karl: I guess because my favorite color’s red. Krobotkin: I can see the appeal in Raphael’s red bandana, Marx-Chan. But when selecting my favorite ninja turtle, I prefer to reflect upon the deeper aspects of the turtle’s character. I find Raphael’s brash personality to be distasteful and overly aggressive. Michaelangelo, on the other hand, is a kind-hearted and agreeable fellow and he also has those awesome nunchuks. Carrot: We can stop here. Did you notice anything different about this argument? To begin with, Krobotkin did not immediately launch into an attack of Marx-Chan’s opinion, even though he disagreed. He began by asking for a clarification: “Why did Marx-Chan prefer Raphael?” When following up with his own opinion, Krobotkin adressed Marx-Chan’s evidence and provided evidence of his own. This was a respectful, good faith argument. Through this kind of discussion, Krobotkin and Marx-Chan are likely to discover aspects of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles that they hadn’t considered before, which will lead to a deeper engagement with the subject of the debate. Now that we know what a good faith argument looks like, let’s see what the same argument would look like in bad faith. Neckybeard: Hey Glue! Who’s your favorite ninja turtle? Glue: I like that Donatello. Neckybeard: Donatello? He’s the worst ninja turtle! His weapon is a stupid stick and he wears purple bandanas. The only people who like the color purple are women and- Carrot: Okay, I think we’ve heard enough. Neckybeard has clearly launched a bad faith argument. As soon as he heard an idea that he disagreed with, he began attacking it aggressively. He displayed no interest in why Glue liked Donatello and gave his opinion no credit whatsoever. It is clear that Neckybeard is more interested in winning this argument than in seeking any kind of truth. He came to the discussion with a fixed attitude and will not be satisfied until Glue either cedes to his opinion or gives up in frustration. So what should Glue do next? Let’s see what happens if he decides to defend himself and his ideas. Neckybeard: And that’s why Donatello is the worst and Raphael is the best. Glue: Well, it’s fine with me if Raphael is your favorite ninja turtle, Neckybeard, but I still like Donatello. And in the NES game, Donatello has the best weapon. Neckybeard: If you can’t play the NES game with Raphael, then that just means you suck at gaming, Glue. Stop whining and get good! Glue: Well, I’m not whining, I just… I like Donatello. He does machines! Neckybeard: “Does machines…” Why don’t you look at this exhaustive list of every time one of Donatello’s machines broke down at the comic books, both cartoon series and every feature film that I just pulled up on Google and then tell me how good Donatello is at doing machines? Carrot: Poor Glue… He’s in for a long night of disputing a bunch of crap that Neckybeard pulls off of Google. What could he have done differently to avoid this nasty fate? The answer is easy if you remember one simple acronym. I.D.G.A.F. is a foolproof method for dealing with anyone who argues in bad faith. Let’s break it down. I stands for Identifying the bad faith argument. Look for telltale signs that your debate opponent is arguing from a position of bad faith. For example: Your opponent seems completely fixed in their position with no willingness to examine any differing perspective. Neckybeard: It is a simple, basic FACT that Donatello is the worst ninja turtle. Carrot: Your opponent seems to have absolutely no respect for you on a personal level. They act dismissive and hurl frequent insults. Neckybeard: And anyone who thinks otherwise is a beta cuck. You’d have to be a total moron to think that Donatello’s anything but the worst of all Ninja Turtles. Your opponent is more concerned with winning the argument than determining the truth. Neckybeard: Why can’t you admit that Donatello is the worst ninja turtle, Glue? Everybody knows it, you’re just making yourself look like a total fool by saying otherwise. Your opponent parrots a bunch of token, cliché statements that only have a superficial connection to the conversation at hand. SJWs like you are ruining Ninja Turtles. Sorry this isn’t one of your safe spaces, where everyone has to agree with all of your snowflake opinions. Donatello is just another example of Cultural Marxism! Now that we have identified a bad faith argument troll, it’s time for Step 2: Stop talking to the troll immediately. Don’t waste your time. Inform your opponent that you don’t engage in bad faith arguments and end the discussion abruptly. Glue: This argument is in bad faith, Neckybeard, so I’m going to go now. Goodbye. The troll will likely consider this a victory. Neckybeard: Yeah, you just know that you can’t defeat my superior intellect. You know I’m right and you’re wrong. I win again! Carrot: And that’s okay. Remember that your precious, fleeting time on this Earth is far too valuable for you to waste your life arguing unimportant drivel with pedantic shitheads. Now you’re ready for steps 3 through 5: Go do literally anything else. Avoid this person for the rest of your life and Forget they exist. Bad faith trolls get off on having long, rambling, abusive arguments. They seek to win in debates at all costs because when they have these meaningless victories, it’s the closest their cold, black hearts will ever come to actually feeling anything. Neckybeard: This should stave off my overwhelming sense of self-loathing for at least another 15 minutes. Carrot: Cut these people out of your life. Block them on social media, stop hanging out with them, just avoid them to whatever extent you can and do your best to forget that they are alive. You’ll be glad you did. Glue: I thought I smelled carrots. Carrot: Oh hi there, Glue, I was just wrapping up. Have a nice day! Glue: Wait, professor Carrot, come back! I have a deep hunger for knowledge right now. I really wanna chew on this topic s’more! Let me nibble yooooou!

 

97 Responses

  1. Peter Coffin

    July 26, 2018 5:03 pm

    This is exactly why I didn't talk about She-Ra. It's not a real, actual topic that people anywhere but Twitter give a damn about. Making a thing about it is ultimately giving fuel to a bad faith argument.

    Not that bad faith arguments don't get fuel and become actual issues, but that happens by treating them seriously. The media acted like the fan backlash for Last Jedi was significant (and not bad faith signal boosting of the opinion of a smaller number of very clear reactionaries) and people did actually have to address a topic which gained steam thanks to people not knowing the IDGAF method.

    Reply
  2. Dan Pyke

    July 27, 2018 9:31 am

    Good stuff friend! It's important to know when to just not let random assholes on the internet have claim on your time.

    A maneuver I sometimes deploy when dealing with a certain type of ignorant troll is to take a step back and just describe the interaction to any potential audience:

    "You see how the person responds to a question they don't know how to answer? I say X and immediately the topic is changed with some not so subtle personal attacks tossed in for good measure."

    Does double duty of not letting them control the conversation and it helps keep me in a headspace where I don't just react to bullshit.

    Reply
  3. Andrew Sheneman

    July 27, 2018 10:01 am

    Whoe's complaining about She-Ra's breast size? Most complaints I see are about the animation being bad, and her design being generic and boring.

    Reply
  4. Elisto

    July 27, 2018 10:05 am

    i love those puppet show,
    can we have a behind the scences episode ? do you make your own puppets or use a third party for that ?

    donatello is best turtle fight me !

    Reply
  5. Mattjmjmjm

    July 27, 2018 10:26 am

    Did that Carrot change eye colour? The matter of bad faith arguments on reddit is over 9000!. Thanks for a great video once again mate.

    Reply
  6. Prophoem

    July 27, 2018 2:31 pm

    I agree with you we shouldn't let trolls control our time. And we would do best to ignore them whenever they start talking politics. But I don't know about completely cutting them from my life. Yeah I don't like their politics, but their still, ya know. People.

    Reply
  7. The Blue Lizard

    July 27, 2018 2:33 pm

    "bre-e-e-ests"
    the bleats get me every time. almost as good as "sit on my a-a-a-a-ass"

    Reply
  8. The Blue Lizard

    July 27, 2018 2:40 pm

    TheQuartering literally made a video a week ago talking about flat chested she ra. Ridiculous lmao

    Reply
  9. Beesativity

    July 27, 2018 2:54 pm

    As soon as IDGAF popped up on screen, it elicited a hearty chuckle out of the depths of the void inside my heart.

    Reply
  10. Doribi117

    July 27, 2018 3:39 pm

    I do try my best to make my arguments good faith arguments even when dealing with Capitalist Apologetics, but this video does point out a flaw I have, I kind of suck at the disengage.

    Reply
  11. Kaylee Gregory

    July 27, 2018 3:44 pm

    Well I just enjoy talking shit. Sorry. Trollz need to be tied up with nonsense. So they have precious time wasted……….PRAXIS

    Reply
  12. Christine Smith

    July 27, 2018 4:07 pm

    Um, Raphael is cool….. but crude. On the other hand, Michelangelo is a party dude.

    Cowabunga.

    (Also, Go Team Raphael.)

    Reply
  13. Thought Slime

    July 27, 2018 5:14 pm

    oh so you're saying nobody should ever argue with anyone and anybody who does is a bad person
    WOW
    SMH so much for the tolerant left

    Reply
  14. Owen Symes

    July 27, 2018 5:48 pm

    Excellent!
    Worth point out when Leftists do this as well – certainly easy to grow comfortable and dogmatic, even if your overall point of view is closer to the truth of things than those perspectives that are more on the right.

    To that end, having read a bunch of Foucault, Chomsky, DuBois, and some left-leaning historians (Eric Foner, for instance), I've started wading through Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations and FA Hayek's Constitution of Liberty. I'm almost done with Smith (often dry, sometimes idealistic, but just as often quite illuminating, and not dogmatic like Milton Friedman would believe) and have only just started Hayek (he's very libertarian, in the good sense, when it comes to state power and coercion, but certainly has too much faith in markets for my taste).

    Both authors, however I might disagree with them in detail, present their arguments well – and I think that reading them charitably, always trying to see the most charitable or reasonable interpretation for a passage that irks me, goes a long way to keeping my leftism undogmatic. After all, a good scientist tries to prove the null hypothesis; and while economics, politics, etc are not strict sciences, they do benefit from some of the scientific methodology – skepticism of ones self at least.

    Reply
  15. BTMotley

    July 28, 2018 2:55 am

    Aw, Glue! I like Donatello the best, too. <3
    Also, love the new title for these puppet vids. 'Breadville' is cute.

    Reply
  16. Carl Vanderlip

    July 28, 2018 4:36 am

    Can't people come around and possibly argue in good faith at a later time (preferably after they have shown that they can operate in good faith)

    Reply
  17. Neutral Narwhal

    August 14, 2018 3:59 am

    Sometimes people arguing in bad faith depend on having the "emotional high ground. They don't use insults or raise their voice, but they do all the other things mentioned here (refuse to address your argument, keep switching to superficially related topics, etc). Then, when you get frustrated trying to debate this brick wall, they claim it as a victory. Because you can't keep calm and level, they dismiss your statements as being untrue no matter what facts you used to back them up.

    Reply
  18. Neutral Narwhal

    August 14, 2018 4:03 am

    I completely dropped a friend for pulling this kind of shit with me. Pretty much everyone who knows has told me I was overreacting. It's not about the disagreement but about the sheer lack of respect put on display by these people.

    Reply
  19. Government is for NPCs

    August 24, 2018 2:31 pm

    Do you honestly believe that people are upset about the new shera because they got rid of her rack? No, we are upset that the character we grew up with was changed to fit an SWJ narrative.

    Reply
  20. Ron Maimon

    September 21, 2018 10:26 am

    This is not the way to argue online. To argue online you shout harder with harder insults, from a left position. That's what online culture is, it doesn't respect bourgeois politeness, and that's a good thing.

    Reply
  21. Velvet Zealot

    November 21, 2018 2:50 am

    I may be saying something counter-revolutionary, but I can't help but find Neckybeard to be the most adorable little shithead

    Reply
  22. Syksy

    November 26, 2018 9:02 am

    Sometimes the bad faith arguments are more subtle though, they play a Reasonable and Rational Thinker Who Just Has Some Questions (except the questions never end and no response is good enough and the arguments keep shifting…)

    Reply
  23. That Little Niglet

    November 29, 2018 4:34 am

    You ain’t paying attention to what we are saying about characters in movies. I’m tired of SJW propaganda in movies. Trying to add diversity in movies and shows is overall more racist and Sexist. Like look at Star Wars, the reason that everyone is mad about the new trilogy is that Rey was only added for “diversity” and so was Finn. They added these character so that more people could feel relatable which overall means that they are saying that you can only relate to someone of your race or gender. If we want true diversity in movies than we should focus more on their ways of thinking and their story. That way it doesn’t matter what race or gender they are they can all be great relatable characters to everyone if you work on this.

    Reply
  24. Roland Guiscard

    December 24, 2018 4:43 pm

    But I like the new She Ra.

    And I’m hoping it leads to a He-Man remake.

    Maybe one that doesn’t give me body image issues this time.

    Reply
  25. Dennis Fritz

    January 3, 2019 2:35 am

    I see at least one major problem with this strategy. If every leftist simply disengages and tells themselves they have better things to do, they effectively surrender entire online platforms to the far right. The far right doesn't want to convince the left of anything. They just want to silence it.

    Reply
  26. Pascal Smit

    January 4, 2019 4:05 pm

    I've noticed that very often, a good way to identify bad faith trolls is by asking for specific and precise definitions of what they are talking about. For example, when they say "socialism" – I just ask what exactly they mean when they say socialism as there are many different views on it and I would like to set a baseline for continuing the conversation. Often, they will repeat their original statement, maybe in slightly different wording, a few times while I keep asking for clarification. After a few requests for clarification, they tend to disengage themselves and go on their unmerry way.

    Reply
  27. Defintely Human

    January 5, 2019 12:59 pm

    My hispanic friend defended Nazis and Fascism yesterday, "people elected hitler"
    I realized that I argue with him in bad faith because he lacks morals, values, or positions on anything and is just a contrarian to everything I say. Actually there is one thing he values and that is his profit, he has scarface dreams

    I did think we were on the same page that Nazis and Fascism are bad, it turns out we didnt agree. So I used the IDGAF method without even knowing what it was

    As a matter of fact ive come to naturally understand the IDGAF method and have been employing it for at least a year now without ever explicitly or consciously defining its methodology

    Reply
  28. TreeHairedGingerAle

    January 5, 2019 7:06 pm

    Thank you. 🤦

    😅 Probably should just go ahead and get that I.D.G.A.F. thing tattooed on my back. 😆 My whole 'commenting/arguing on the interwebs' habit has been getting out of hand lately. Time to chill that shit out.

    Reply
  29. CorndogMaker

    January 6, 2019 7:07 pm

    I can see how you might think that's a "bad faith" argument but I tend to focus on the content of the points and counter-points rather than the tone.

    There is evedence to suggest that someones certainty is not a good measure of their inability to have their minds changed.
    There are many examples of scientists being certain of their theories, only to have the evidence surprise and humble them. I myself have had my most fundamental beliefs changed, even against my will, my belief couldn't standup against the counterpoints and I needed to begrudgingly yield.

    I agree that one should always point out if ones intterlociters point is purely tone or just personal disparagement, because that would be an ad-hominim. But NickiBeard clearly had some points.

    Many people just interact in a very competitive way and pepper their arguments. Using that acronym you can also fall into the trap of shutting someone out who may actually be right! And now you won't be corrected because you've gone to those who are a bit more gentile. Sometimes the desire to "get back" at an agressive opponent, is just what you need to research your views and maybe even discover their flaws. Sometimes a firebrand arguer can be a real asset.

    In this instance I agree with some of Nickie Beards points too. that Raph requires more skill to use in the videogame and really gives one a sense of pride if you can win using such short weapons. Like playing in a harder mode.

    I also find it odd that you imply that arguing about sillythings like cartoons is a waste of time, but then have a "good faith" argument where they also argue about cartoons. An argument that could, likewise continue for a very long time without resolution, even if both parties are cordial. This makes it seem like a red herring and an equivocation fallacy.

    Reply
  30. iron 13

    January 29, 2019 5:41 pm

    I feel Glue.
    Donatello's bo staff is the best weapon.
    Also, he's as good as a fighter as his brothers, in addition to his skills as an engineer.

    Donnie's purple color makes him unique amongst male 80's cartoon superheros, which may be called "gay" by some, but they're idiots.

    Sure, many of his inventions fail, but inventing involves a LOT of trial and error. The turtle van is one of his inventions, built from on old VW microbus that is refurbed to being a car that can carry all the Turtles, Splinter, and April to any scene.

    And it's not his own inventions Don has broken, many times his skills helped him take down some of Shredder's weapons as well.

    Reply
  31. unstoppableExodia

    January 30, 2019 2:19 am

    I'm totally on board with what this video has to say about good faith/bad faith arguments but I also agree with neckybeard's criticisms of that new she-ra design. It doesn't stay true to the assets of the original design and that's sad. If they wanted to veer so far from the source material they probably should have just created a new IP rather than piss off a bunch of 80s kids who haven't even thought of the character in over 20 years

    Reply
  32. EmLill Things

    February 7, 2019 5:18 pm

    funny how watching a few of these resulted in most of the suggestions on the right being toy-reviews and similar

    Reply
  33. Gus Johnson

    February 10, 2019 6:50 pm

    I absolutely agree with your video! You guys have presented the concept of bad faith arguments pretty well. I always try to walk through debates or discussions very carefully – I try to understand the other person, try to put myself in their position etc. That being said, every feminist (or "leftist" in a broader sence) that I have personally met in my life frequently uses bad faith arguements when talking about their ideas.

    Reply
  34. Poison Damage

    February 26, 2019 8:57 pm

    Man, now i feel like watching the Last Stop, This Town by the Eels.

    ontopic: yeah, nice, i'll copypaste that to everyone struggling on the internet on such a debate now 😛

    Reply
  35. John Klepadlo

    March 4, 2019 12:57 am

    Overall this is solid, but I feel it fails to address the ramifications of public debates wherein someone is arguing in bad faith. Disengaging can lead those watching to believe that the one arguing in bad faith to be correct, and there are real world examples of this, the most alarming being that it has made recruiting efforts of white nationalist groups easier in a significant enough number of cases. To this I have to say; what the fuck are we supposed to do then?

    Reply
  36. FullyAutomatedLuxuryLGBTplusTranshumnistSpaceAnCom

    March 7, 2019 10:55 pm

    After watching several of these I'm suddenly getting recommended a lot of normal children's and puppet shows.
    What are your thoughts on some good anarchocommunist content seemingly getting aimed at children confused by the algorithm for normal capitalist stuff?

    Reply
  37. Djuan Eastman

    March 11, 2019 5:04 pm

    I understand your point that you shouldn’t argue with a person who is using an argument to insult you for things you don’t believe irl. Bad faith arguments have a different dimension online, however; where the bad faith is generally to get a certain result. Sometimes that result is to stop people from commenting or engaging speakers they disagree with. They’ll just spam them with insults and get a few friends or bots. It takes time to block them and it makes it difficult to tell when you have bad faith or someone who doesn’t know how to argue without taking it personal. The latter sometimes figures it out. The reason I add that point is that I disagree with the do not engage online, a point that you didn’t make yet the comments show some responding to it. A little counter-trolling to make it more obvious to the audience they are trying to appeal to can make their efforts to cry about how great their ideas and libs won’t listen to them harder to defend as anything but obnoxious harassment by people old enough to know better. And if it’s just the ignorance that would be natural to anyone just developing their political opinions in an age of trolls, they get enough time to correct themselves.

    Considering, as far as I can tell, the right-wingers wage troll campaigns against any effective liberalish black commentators, you have to learn to use them. I can see the strategic reasons for it, but that is the political reality presently.

    To your main point, if someone comes to you at the gas station or some crap insulting you and pretending like it is a debate leave them alone. They want to argue with themselves, mission accomplished.

    Reply
  38. Onyx Blue

    March 20, 2019 4:31 am

    Thank you, wise carrot professor!
    (Words I never thought I would say, but there you go…life's just weird.)

    Reply
  39. Sebastian Sean Crow

    March 20, 2019 6:33 am

    Why do we keep going on about TMNT though? Neckybeard is hitting me right in the childhood and he’s just a puppet ugh

    Reply
  40. William Williams

    March 28, 2019 1:10 pm

    Its like arguing against somebody who's never tried pegging… they'll just never get it.

    Reply
  41. Orin King

    April 6, 2019 3:49 pm

    obviously the best teenage mutant ninja turtle is donatello, as he is purple, which kind of sounds like turtle.

    Reply
  42. Rory Syers

    April 11, 2019 10:05 am

    Donatello is the best Ninja Turtle, but I respect if people like the others. Now if arguments which are not about cartoons or comics were this easy online.

    Reply
  43. Carolina Blood

    April 29, 2019 11:29 am

    Thank you for directing me to this video! It pretty much sums up everything I've seen from ANTI-SJW Tube.

    Reply
  44. Laura Was Here

    May 13, 2019 1:00 am

    I have a very strong desire to eat professor carrot. Throw him in a stew or something. He just looks so ripe and fresh.

    Reply
  45. Amanda Fairbrother

    May 22, 2019 2:56 am

    What a stupid concept… thought as far as clicking on the upload huh…???😅🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

    Reply
  46. theory pleeb

    May 29, 2019 9:08 pm

    6:17 "And that's OK" I'm bookmarking the following section to serve as a constant reminder. I just improve on this and practice I.D.G.A.F. more.

    Reply
  47. Author S.R. Weaver

    May 31, 2019 2:41 pm

    I Dont Give A Fuck! 😛

    That's what I thought it was going to say. Glad it was more mature than that.

    Reply
  48. Ben M.

    June 1, 2019 9:39 pm

    The algorithm apparently thinks "Puppet Show = Child is watching" because the suggestions off to the side just went full Youtube Kids, holy shit.

    Reply
  49. canna roe

    June 9, 2019 2:06 pm

    Next week on Everyone who disagrees with me is acting in bad faith : Russian Bots – how to detect them in 10 easy, subjective steps

    Reply
  50. Kali

    June 13, 2019 1:47 am

    I need to bookmark this vid so I can watch it whenever the urge to engage with a bad faith troll hits me.
    PS: I miss the puppets, especially Glue.

    Reply
  51. PHILL SHIVELY

    July 9, 2019 6:49 pm

    Good faith or Bad the She-Ra Design looks Terrible same for Thunder Cats I'd prefer Something more in line with the limited Run He-Man Cartoon Just Looked way cooler and more Serious 😀

    Reply
  52. Daniel Roderick JR

    September 9, 2019 7:37 pm

    My sidebar is filled with children's animation stuff because the algorithm can't tell your Communist friends puppetshow from Peppa Pig. Somewhere out there is a six year old Ancap and I hope you can live with that on your conscience. Single digit age is not the right time to flatten hierarchies now is it?

    Reply
  53. The Ultimate Reductionist

    September 13, 2019 10:44 pm

    Cuntservatives do all the bad things Communists/Marxists do (worship the military police, force antidrug anti-porn anti-abortion laws on people)
    but none of the good things: the people's government benefitting EVERYBODY equally: healthcare for all, housing for all, equal income for all.

    Reply

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